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00:00:009.06 (s)uh the witnesses have done a really good job preparing your written testimony we look forward to uh during an elaborate on that testimony this morning so we can learn more
00:00:100.78 (s)the panel
00:00:1111.38 (s)it's focus on the difference if any that exist between cost and value for our uh uniformed personnel in are their support personnel and taxpayers the country
00:00:230.60 (s)um
00:00:253.86 (s)we spend an enormous amount of money the defense of our country and we shut
00:00:2911.86 (s)it is our responsibility to make sure that money is spent prudently wisely so those two step four to defend our country have the best technology available the best tools available to do their job for our country
00:00:426.44 (s)and so that the taxpayers are receiving and robust value for their investment in the defense of the country
00:00:496.86 (s)the panels work project is proceeded in several steps we began with the question of whether there are
00:00:564.90 (s)uh adequate metrics to measure the difference if any between cost and value
00:01:0210.54 (s)we're now proceeding on the second modal analysis which which deals of hypotheses about why differences between cost and value i have emerged
00:01:1312.44 (s)third section of our inquiry we'll deal with uh propose solutions to deal with those problems and then finally the panel will convene a toward the end of our term and come up with recommendations which we look forward to
00:01:266.82 (s)advocating uh in e. f. y. two thousand eleven armed services authorization bill this morning
00:01:331.38 (s)we're going to focus on
00:01:354.68 (s)a critical hypothesis about the difference between cost and value in that as the
00:01:407.82 (s)uh in adequacy uh through which the united states our defense purchases information technology the challenges that we face in doing that
00:01:494.04 (s)uh this is a sort of collision of two cultures as i see it
00:01:530.56 (s)um
00:01:552.44 (s)for good reasons we have a culture of
00:01:583.38 (s)deliberation and care in the purchase of uh
00:02:027.68 (s)equipment and systems and supplies in our department offensive we shut want to be very carefully things that to be sure that things work right
00:02:1010.80 (s)want to be sure that we're doing things in uh and honest and proper way in the procurement process and so the process matches the requirements and budgeting needs of the department of defense
00:02:215.84 (s)this culture which is understandably based upon due deliberation process clashes would be
00:02:288.10 (s)uh hyperventilated culture of the of the tech world where it's moore's law would tell us things always change in a big hurry usually for the better
00:02:367.90 (s)so when you combine the dynamic of the tech world with the more uh delivered of culture of department defense procurement
00:02:456.18 (s)you get some trouble you get some challenges and that's we're here to talk about this morning i want to say from the very outset
00:02:5210.84 (s)that the the gap that has been identified between cost and value i do not ascribe any weakness for deficiency by any individual or institution in the procurement process
00:03:047.56 (s)i know i'm not here this morning to say that someone's drop the ball or hasn't done his or her job i'm sure that's true in some instances
00:03:122.80 (s)but my sense here's there's a systemic problem
00:03:155.82 (s)which pose itself is this culture clash i mentioned a few minutes before they it's a very hard thing
00:03:2113.34 (s)to um capture uh we're rolling derivation which is this technology dynamic contain it's a very difficult thing to do and we don't want to go to straight right we we don't want to extreme where we say that
00:03:351.70 (s)by the next thing that comes out
00:03:3817.52 (s)it'll probably work well that's really not a very good way to serve our our uh you for personnel our taxpayers on the other hand we don't want to say we don't care how fast technology moving is something look like this the right thing to do in two thousand and four by in two thousand nine or ten or eleven or twelve
00:03:566.36 (s)we're looking for a happy medium between those two polarizing positions now the data
00:04:032.42 (s)would certainly shows we need that happy medium
00:04:0613.80 (s)um work but the d. s. p. task force which dates back to november two thousand that tells us some very foreboding statistics only sixteen percent of all i t projects were completed on time and on budget
00:04:203.68 (s)thirty one percent of those projects were cancelled before completion
00:04:248.38 (s)uh fifty three percent were late and overbudget with a typical cost growth exceedingly original budget by more than eighty nine percent
00:04:331.72 (s)which is a very significant number
00:04:3613.02 (s)and the i t. projects that are completed the final product typically contains at least sixty one percent of the original specified features now that could be a good thing or a bad thing and i don't want to things we're going to talk about this morning
00:04:5048.66 (s)is how requirements crete which in other areas of procurement is regarded as a bad thing may well be necessary inputs thing in this field because that technological dynamic that i talked about earlier at any rate uh we assemble uh a panel of three gentlemen new farley know this object i think will contribute much to our discussion this morning we look for welcoming that at this time i'm going to turn to uh my friend or the ranking member from texas connelly for his comments well i sharing and uh i think the a coming up this morning and uh share your thoughts with this uh uh today's hearing is going to focus on i have to go thursday l. um i t. acquisition systems versus be uh uh the normal traditional hardware physician systems are they different how they should getting a better understanding of the impact that uh
00:05:391.60 (s)uh this is a different
00:05:4127.56 (s)styles like word phrase uh do way fishing uh clearly that uh in information technology in the uh the hardware setup type to that is up markedly different the look at the therefore we chat about eight percent of its uh system is run by computers per se staff twenty two which is like eighty percent of systems are run by computer it's it's it's a different world and growing the uh uh by share vice advice uh uh are vice chief of staff of the army is said
00:06:097.10 (s)are curly said that the antiquated system we operate uh is an albatross around the nectar we are uh
00:06:1728.14 (s)cheers automation the at the fantasize boards uh findings uh from the uh march o. nine report that says a short report found that the fundamental problems of the part if it's basis is that be deliberate process which weapons systems differ but information technology or acquired does not match to see which new i t. capabilities are bringing reduced in today's information age you know reports put workstation is at the department need a new acquisition system for information technology
00:06:4511.90 (s)uh was certainly easier to recognize it the introduction of new i. t. capabilities out pages be that position system what is less clear is what such a new acquisition system for i t i would look like
00:06:587.18 (s)critical factor but how would the department minimize time of delivery well insuring proper oversight and avoiding wasteful spending
00:07:069.12 (s)another question is is there a reasonably that you we can be successful a session over approaches and if so why would this approach work for traditional assist
00:07:153.84 (s)this is particularly true as a weapon systems get more more i take into account
00:07:2025.42 (s)at some point how does one distinguish between an automated information system like the business system one in front that and aircraft is eighty percent of this functionality delivered from electronic sensors and information processing capability look forward about what is is thank the chairman starting this uh hearing thank you very much my friend um i'm right at this point introduce our three witnesses without objection your um
00:07:466.48 (s)opening statements to be included in the record of the hearing and we ask you this and not size sure written statements uh
00:07:5312.24 (s)for us so we can proceed to questions i would also say that any member of the panel who wishes to have an opening statement header by without objection would be permitted to do so somewhere redefine our of these are the witnesses and then we'll proceed with
00:08:056.38 (s)uh the nazis of your statements and then get on to questions and answers from the panel timothy j. heart
00:08:1216.56 (s)is the deputy assistant secretary of defense for c. three i. s. r. ninety acquisition mr. harper's responsible for the review of major acquisition programs for command control communications intelligence surveillance reconnaissance space in information technology programs
00:08:309.50 (s)in addition he read reviews the major defense acquisition programs in major automated information systems as chairman of the command control communications and intelligence
00:08:392.30 (s)over arching integrated product team
00:08:424.52 (s)in support of the defense acquisition board information technology acquisition to work
00:08:4714.40 (s)um mister harper see this bachelor of science degree in this is an illustration from penn state university in any line and masters of business administration degree in financial management from the george washington university
00:09:0314.82 (s)he's a defense acquisition workforce integrity act level three certified in program management business cost estimating and financial management acquisition logistics is awards include the defense never tori civilian service now
00:09:1834.88 (s)the defense exceptional civilian service medal and the defense appear service now mr. harper's wife and family reside in the nasa's virginia welcome manager with us to get that all of what business card no fears legislation limits the name of any more than no more than three or four words that is quite a bit of money business card for doctor paul nielsen is director and chief executive officer of the software engineering institute federally funded research development center operated by carnegie mellon university
00:09:5310.04 (s)the s. i. advances software engineering principles and practices to focus research and development which is transition to the broad software engineering community
00:10:045.90 (s)the sci serves as a global leader in process improvement and network systems survive ability
00:10:1014.20 (s)additionally b. s. e. isaac innovator in software architecture software product lines interoperable the integration of software intensive systems and increasing overlap the software and systems engineering
00:10:254.64 (s)um in a very distinguished career in the united states air force
00:10:307.74 (s)uh doctor nielsen certain u. s. air force for targeting major general after thirty two years of distinguished service for which we think you
00:10:397.08 (s)in two thousand and four doctor nielsen became a fellow of the american institute of aeronautics and astro not x.
00:10:464.80 (s)he serves as the a. i. a. president from two thousand and seventy two thousand eight
00:10:5222.12 (s)he serves on the airforce scientific advisory board is a member of the board of directors for the hertz foundation a nonprofit the words graduate school fellowships and applied sciences thank you nielsen figure service server being this morning i only doctor ronald uh carper is it experience executive with a successful record of leading and growing domestic and global basis
00:11:1510.72 (s)this leadership responsibilities including general management innovation product development procurement cost reduction profitability in the first and diverse global organizations
00:11:2615.00 (s)currently split this time among a variety entrepreneur l. pro propl activities as president s. b. d. c. a. small consulting firm partner and co founder of dominion development company and profits station l. l. c.
00:11:426.64 (s)visiting professor at the darden business school at the university of virginia and a member of the department of defense science board
00:11:4929.70 (s)doctor curb or received his b. s. degree from purdue university n. s. and p. h. agrees in engineering science from the california institute of technology jumping thank you for your meticulous preparation as i said you're you've written statements are considered be part of record and the start will begin with your uh for all testimony would ask you to summarize about five minutes so we can get the questions from the panel good morning sir more in german anders represented kind of way and other members of the defense acquisition reform parent
00:12:196.12 (s)thank you for this opportunity to testify challenges effective acquisition and management of information technology systems
00:12:264.68 (s)i've submitted my written statement as you mention for the record and want to briefly highlight a few key points
00:12:316.94 (s)specifically i like one out some challenges in information technology environment to differentiate information technology acquisition
00:12:397.14 (s)from the major weapons systems acquisition experience throughout my twenty two year maybe career as a weapon system acquisition professional
00:12:476.26 (s)i'd like to contrast is to my recent experience over the past six years as a member the idea culture too much
00:12:541.28 (s)based on my experience
00:12:567.56 (s)the traditional deity acquisition process is far too slow to keep pace would be extremely rapid pace of information technology change
00:13:047.76 (s)even the different phases of the acquisition process has set forth for weapons systems are ill suited for information technology systems
00:13:132.48 (s)they they is intended to mature technology
00:13:165.06 (s)yet our underlying information technologies are now we know largely richard in the commercial sector
00:13:216.40 (s)bayes be is intended to ready a program for production yet information technologies typically are produced in quantity
00:13:285.86 (s)pacey is the production phase which again is generally not relevant information technology that is not produced in quantity
00:13:353.18 (s)the term lifecycle is also become ambiguous because
00:13:397.06 (s)similar to the b. fifty two experience where we build on their frame and then updated the pieces over the time rather than build a full replacement
00:13:4710.30 (s)in year modular ready and dynamics of information technology and the pace of commercial information technology development was to build or adopt information technology equivalent of their frame
00:13:585.62 (s)and continue to modify indefinitely rather than replace entire system and prepare predetermined period of time
00:14:059.04 (s)as noted by the recent d. s. p. report acquisition reform studies have been ongoing almost continuously since the original goldwater nichols legislation was passed in nineteen eighty six
00:14:152.92 (s)most often acquisition related problems in those reports
00:14:183.94 (s)to two requirements creep in funding instability
00:14:233.24 (s)with regard to information technology requirements great
00:14:274.40 (s)a lot of hypothesis at the bar information technology will double every eighteen months
00:14:324.38 (s)has proven to be valid with regard to the information technologies that we have what we require
00:14:377.96 (s)this puts pressure on information technology requires to change the system level requirements during the design process to enable feeling of relevant technology
00:14:468.58 (s)in addition combat operations are being conducted a rapidly changing certain circumstances placing pressure to change requirements during information system acquisition
00:14:552.00 (s)to respond to adversary tactics
00:14:5819.88 (s)also our customers war fighters of today are information technology savvy often turned digital natives with expectations to leverage the unprecedented in innovation commercial market to enhance our information systems in capability in terms of agility flexibility responsiveness ineffectiveness adding to the requirements creep pressure
00:15:207.54 (s)the combination these very these three very real forces lead to significant requirements change pressure information technology process
00:15:2812.90 (s)we should begin to embrace the concept to changing requirements might actually be desirable for information technology acquisitions rather probably in here weapon system acquisition process assumption of stable requirements over time
00:15:425.24 (s)funding stability in this dynamic environment is also significant channels to information technology acquisition
00:15:484.50 (s)a large portion of departments discretionary funding is allocated acquisition
00:15:534.30 (s)within the acquisition account information technology programs are relatively more flexible
00:15:589.80 (s)because i'm like what the system programs information technology programs typically that is significant out your production quantities to amplify near term changes in the execution about your funding
00:16:099.58 (s)so when faced with options choices department we'll defer to information technology more often and what the system technology this aspect of information technology programs
00:16:1917.42 (s)tends to dry drive a degree of funding instability that that have to the requirements stability in short weapon system acquisition processes is optimized to manage production this and doesn't really fit information technology acquisition it does not lead to significant production quantities
00:16:376.90 (s)also uh foundational weapon system acquisition assumption requirements informing stability is ill suited for the information technology acquisition
00:16:4619.48 (s)the information technology acquisition model proposed by the defense science board recognizes the unique aspects of information technology in addresses the requirements in funding challenges to the application of actual processes and exploitation of the inherent modular nature of the information technology to build smaller capability release is rather than large programs
00:17:0620.90 (s)the department welcomes the house armed services committee fiscal year twenty ten defense language it gives a d. o. d. the authority to establish ten pilot programs to rapidly acquire information technology capabilities under alternative acquisition process and we look forward to working with this panel in the future great effective acquisition and management construct for information technology systems
00:17:285.62 (s)we also appreciate the committee's inclusion section eleven eleven which would allow us to bring industry idea experts
00:17:343.06 (s)to do the exchange basis to help with this effort
00:17:380.46 (s)thank you
00:17:3913.04 (s)thank you very much this harper appreciate the doctor nielsen welcome to the committee conley another two numbers i thank you for this opportunity to appear before this uh this panel talking about very important subject for a country
00:17:5333.36 (s)uh number of excellent studies on defense acquisition over the years i've they all pretty much agree on their on the findings and recommendations that i know you're well aware of all a rather read file this sort of sort of well program brown i'd like to talk about one aspect i think support all insect addition that's up a whole side software defense systems uh that's true and weapons systems enterprise business systems and uh and i pieces software is almost everywhere now and amount of software to use wrote as was mentioned by uh by represent dot com
00:18:271.72 (s)so here is a young discipline
00:18:296.64 (s)and it's not like some of the other engineering disciplines such as uh civil engineering aeronautical engineering
00:18:369.54 (s)um mechanical engineering and which likely without physical constraints the design is so fast these large program architectural principles
00:18:461.30 (s)discipline process
00:18:482.08 (s)and talented people is
00:18:515.72 (s)by the larger the program more important is we know that it's just uh or have some park group
00:18:588.02 (s)software engineering c. c. major advances in the last fifty years but the size function and complexity of software is continue to grow
00:19:061.96 (s)the bar keeps getting i
00:19:086.04 (s)uh as mentioned moore's law has helped us a lot i didn't is more computational throughput while storage
00:19:1510.06 (s)but this is like the more more functionality resting and software all of our defense system and sometimes the line between what's uh i t. system which a major weapons system so for now
00:19:260.44 (s)um
00:19:2811.00 (s)this functionality is this true not only in the defense world is world aerospace telecommunication automotive medical software just ever cards now have almost a million this
00:19:403.96 (s)telephones cell phones each of us have to ten million lines of
00:19:453.86 (s)tremendously innovative concept she opened up in the software engineering world
00:19:491.46 (s)uh in new challenges as well
00:19:517.06 (s)right now in arrow would increase i mean uh increasing number of systems are linking buying networks internet
00:19:593.74 (s)the convenience power and cost and these approaches are compelled
00:20:042.02 (s)but the complexity of architect in
00:20:063.96 (s)wing testing and operating cultural our system on
00:20:114.34 (s)and we are all becoming more more where the pervasive cyber implications connect
00:20:171.00 (s)worry about that too
00:20:1815.38 (s)more than ever we need strong quality built into our system from the initial fine architecture this is a major theme in software engineering class of twenty years it through shaw architectures discipline process and pervasive attention to quality
00:20:342.88 (s)you can deliver complex systems on time
00:20:380.92 (s)and within budget
00:20:394.48 (s)follow these principles will also develop software ninety that are more secure
00:20:458.92 (s)to accomplish this we really need get hard communities understand software engineering principles uh and work together to address the acquisition problems face immediately
00:20:544.54 (s)and also to have some forward looking research to address the problems are coming down the future
00:20:591.48 (s)will have even larger system
00:21:019.46 (s)four connected i t. systems have their own unique characteristics we really have to worry about the different tempo i. t.'s since have an equity like
00:21:114.94 (s)but we also need to worry about the systemic issues that i t. and or well
00:21:172.54 (s)as we look to the future the bars and he gets higher
00:21:2110.34 (s)no doubt about that we're going to need government engineers and program managers that are trained and experienced handle systems we build an understand architectural principles entries that are made
00:21:312.90 (s)expertise and passion
00:21:354.64 (s)well the industry engineers and managers and i see as well as the weapon system so
00:21:406.66 (s)kept up with the latest techniques have contributed to the best practices innovations software engineering
00:21:482.98 (s)and we need robust research programs that are university
00:21:512.66 (s)address the opportunities some problems that get yet
00:21:5512.80 (s)mr chairman and committee members i that'll in my statement now before you dot nielsen thank you very much we appreciate your testimony doc arbor welcome i get this german members of the pleasure to appear before your panel um
00:22:084.06 (s)i'm a member of the defense science board and uh i have submitted to you uh
00:22:136.48 (s)copies of three reports uh that stand for my testimony that jackson
00:22:208.12 (s)i must also state that i'm hearing as a private individual and my uh comments too necessarily reflect those of the uh the views of the department
00:22:300.62 (s)uh
00:22:317.62 (s)we have looked at the defense acquisition process and uh as you well know there've been many reports in many studies
00:22:399.26 (s)and the question is why do these activities not address the problem that has lasted for so long and we with to say that it doesn't address the root causes of a problem
00:22:502.02 (s)problems appear to be caused by
00:22:531.76 (s)immature technology
00:22:553.22 (s)uh requirements creep funding instability
00:22:5911.62 (s)but we would argue most of that is caused by an experience and i'm proven leadership and programs are not structured and initiated in a way that can be successfully completed
00:23:1122.30 (s)there's no separate simple so for both to solving this problem it's really a commonsense approach we also thank the problem is beyond the scope of the undersecretary of defense for acquisition technology and logistics it's really a problem the scope of the secretary defense and it should be because many of those players that perform any acquisition arena don't report of the undersecretary of acquisition
00:23:341.04 (s)so what is needed
00:23:362.78 (s)seems simple but we need to buy the right things
00:23:392.20 (s)we need to select an effective leadership team
00:23:422.96 (s)we need to reform and streamlined acquisition process
00:23:452.14 (s)and we need to improve acquisition act was
00:23:4822.70 (s)execution we also uh need your support in helping the department do this and we need is to instill a sense of urgency just a couple of comments on the buying the right things that seems simple but we really need a resource balanced business plan type concept for the d. o. d. that includes funded acquisition
00:24:115.02 (s)we need to specify the capability needs to support our national security strategy
00:24:176.38 (s)then we need to also effectively represent the combat commanders in the process of determining what we buy
00:24:247.74 (s)and then we need to use comprehensive systems engineering analysis early and throughout the process to determine what we're buying and how we're buying
00:24:323.98 (s)we need to avoid hard requirements without extensive analysis and tradeoff
00:24:373.16 (s)we need to second if select an effective leadership
00:24:427.36 (s)acquisition cannot be fixed without a proven effective leadership team in that goes back to these recommendations of the packard commission
00:24:5011.78 (s)of for leadership include poorly designed product development strategies for management technical risk selection of inexperience contractors for contract incentives and rewards for change orders
00:25:0310.08 (s)skills and programming demonstration are often confused any acquisition community uh with management ability managers manage what we understand
00:25:144.08 (s)proven experience should lead to better judgment and execution
00:25:1917.10 (s)another point that is equally important a secretary of defense has many uh offices that contribute to the decision process and acquisition such as p. a. e. c. i. o. d. d. r. and the controller and o. t. v. plus the services of course often these groups are not alive
00:25:363.98 (s)these groups must be aligned once a decision is made met to uh
00:25:417.08 (s)have an acquisition or by something in the department and they're constructive input should be early in continuous not just the decision milestones
00:25:497.34 (s)we need to improve acquisition processes for major systems commercial derivatives information technology and services services
00:25:579.04 (s)we need to establish more streamlined processes with in depth analysis upfront planned spiral development block upgrades in the use of competitive prototypes
00:26:071.44 (s)right c. acquisition
00:26:105.28 (s)these systems continue to grow both and in size and in content in embedded systems
00:26:164.86 (s)you know the acquisition process is inconsistent with the rapid change i t. tech technology
00:26:216.38 (s)you that congress have imposed new requirements shortly acquisition uh i t. us cycle time
00:26:286.50 (s)for all the national security systems that is important but the department needs processes and capability to do that
00:26:356.06 (s)we have recommended for the i t. acquisition process eight new streamlined uh
00:26:424.62 (s)decision process and we've also recommended how and when to uh to use it
00:26:484.90 (s)we also want to point out that as has been mentioned earlier i t. systems don't
00:26:5313.60 (s)satisfy the laws of physics and so we don't always know what we're by so we need to minimize acquired system bonneville that we need to adopt i t acquisition strategy the compounds the enemy using variety change changing rapid acquisition
00:27:0714.70 (s)the joint chiefs must ensure that field commanders are trained to test information technology systems for authenticity and to operate them integrated nodes we need to clarify i i t. offsite accountability we need to strengthen the c. i. o. authority
00:27:225.72 (s)four the enterprise to provide i. t. vision policy architecture and we need to make sure that we
00:27:2912.06 (s)identified clearly who have oversight accountability for all systems as the growth is i t. systems continues that percentage of the total acquisition will grow and we feel that that needs to be uh
00:27:412.40 (s)manage under the office of uh
00:27:4417.20 (s)the u. s. b. h. you in finding we need to improve acquisition execution i have uh talked about that in the report i would just say a significant point is we need to write size the acquisition workforce with experience we can do that by process mapping be
00:28:029.66 (s)process and the workload to determine the right size and assure clear count building authority for everyone finding we need to develop process metrics for all that we do
00:28:1320.76 (s)just one final comment and the private sector uh there are different characteristics for uh acquisition the customers clearly define the decision authorities more clear accountability is more clear and then finish more clear yet is very difficult to do this uh process even in the private sector and few private companies really do it well
00:28:346.36 (s)and especially for the d. o. d. it's very difficult to do this kind of process on a public stage like
00:28:415.98 (s)well thank you very much we appreciate the the statements from each of the witnesses will begin the questioning um mister harper
00:28:471.64 (s)you made reference to the
00:28:498.56 (s)language that would authorize uh ten pilot programs for an alternative acquisition process i ninety which the committee has support
00:28:591.80 (s)um can you give us some thoughts about what
00:29:016.56 (s)principles you might that pilot process what kinds of differences you would institute in the acquisition process
00:29:094.78 (s)well as a look to the inventory systems that would work in
00:29:1410.48 (s)there seem to be for natural types of systems we have some systems where we're buying just commercial off the shelf hardware that's consider ninety system that doesn't require
00:29:265.32 (s)the same process is a system where we are actually developing in writing software code
00:29:312.06 (s)and developing a capable of the writing code
00:29:344.66 (s)another type of uh acquisition we use we buy software this already
00:29:391.94 (s)that this commercial software and we
00:29:423.80 (s)we put it together and we build interfaces between the system so we developed a
00:29:462.36 (s)system assistance if you will using cops
00:29:491.82 (s)so that would be a different approaches well
00:29:514.74 (s)um so we're looking at at some different templates on how we might approach that but
00:29:576.34 (s)some of this becomes uh you mentioned the b. fifty two model if you get to a system where
00:30:048.16 (s)you don't really need to replace the core system there's been studies that showed up this is when you build a new system up to sixty percent of the code you have to write to make it work
00:30:131.66 (s)doesn't get used over time
00:30:1510.48 (s)um so we don't want to replicate building that sixty percent a lot of times we can take this the core system that we have and just build the pexa pieces broken or add the capabilities you need by building modules right
00:30:2615.12 (s)um and with the funding discussion that i had and we've seen through our experience that many of these programs are level funded over time and the does the decision on what you're going to find an acquisition program is actually made during execution rather than in in late person's terms um
00:30:422.86 (s)what would you try to do differently in the pilot
00:30:464.90 (s)as opposed to what's being done now how how are you going to use the pilot to break new ground
00:30:512.80 (s)what i would do is is take a larger system
00:30:557.40 (s)identified the module in the modules of that system and the interfaces the commercial or standards that exist
00:31:044.86 (s)for those modules to talk together approach each module as if it were separate release or separate
00:31:099.24 (s)part of a system rather than waiting for all the much to be developed before we go to test so good testing release individual systems actual fashion
00:31:199.84 (s)individual release is an agile fashion rather than waiting for the entire thing to be completed is oftentimes we'll have several modules under development in parallel
00:31:298.26 (s)and we can't get to the final test until we complete the final module in other modules that could be used i think it was your testimony that uh
00:31:381.62 (s)said that the average time
00:31:4113.56 (s)to get to the finish line with anyone months is that you know certain um what do you think of plausible goal is to reduce that to it in an optimal world if if the pilot work great and became a great success
00:31:552.78 (s)by how much time we we reduce said eighty one month
00:31:593.28 (s)well conceivably you could reduce it to twelve eighteen months
00:32:039.04 (s)um but again you're not talking about delivering the same thing and eighty one months is a large system was several releases several models all delivering at the same car
00:32:1215.54 (s)in in twelve to eighteen months you could you could deliver capability in pieces of that large system so it's not really an apples to apples i assume this is where the be open architecture and standards becomes important yes or if if if your first release in month eighteen
00:32:292.82 (s)becomes obsolete find one thirty six
00:32:3213.24 (s)you got to have a platform where it can easily be modified architecture working easily modified not make these stare out and start all over in my right about that yes or twentieth dot doc nielsen one the idea is you talked about
00:32:474.14 (s)and it really not following the start assessment with sort of changing the presumption
00:32:517.56 (s)uh prime purchasing and procurement in the i t. world in the regular uh procurement world the presumption is
00:33:0019.66 (s)well it's rarely mad the presumption is the requirements that you start out with shouldn't change there has to be some burden of proof on he or she wants to change the requirements you're suggesting a different presumption i think it in the i t. purchasing world where you presume they're going to be changes because of moore's law and you have a different question but you also said
00:33:2025.88 (s)that double line between software procurement and weapons systems is bore yeah to how we how we reconcile that problem if if we were to take your idea in institutionalize in the law a different set up for assumptions about requirements and nineteen purchasing where we draw the line between the i t. purchasing and the weapons system purchasing so we only exam weapons system purchasing from some very important
00:33:462.74 (s)i here is two requirements we start out with
00:33:5014.68 (s)sir i think that there's some things that are clearly sure i t. systems and i think uh mister park mention that you know if you if you look at the uh the desktops if everybody in the department defense they have uh desktops that are commercially for your desktop support
00:34:0531.08 (s)well i. b. m. whoever computers with uh microsoft or apple whatever software that's kind of clearly any i keep right but as you migrate more to uh command control systems which have in information technology kind of function you start to get to where life and death decisions are made based on things so it's first be i mean is it data system in the cockpit of an airplane and n. i. c. acquisition or the weapons of no i i would consider weapons system i yeah but get it certainly has some like you understand the importance of that question is not currently metaphysical that if if
00:34:377.96 (s)one of the driving forces in cost overruns and weapons systems is is requirement changes right requirements create
00:34:4510.14 (s)and if we want to wrestle that problem of the ground we certainly want to keep the present presumption the requirements you start out with don't change on the other hand i hear what you're saying is that if
00:34:5623.24 (s)if moore's law has pushed beyond will open by your six of a procurement process the the system we're going to put the cockpit isn't the best one we we don't want to be stuck with that here is that i remember you know i was uh i was like commander's aeronautical systems which like your plans for the u. s. uh air force uh from my nineteen ninety two thousand and uh at that point even as the f. twenty two was coming into production
00:35:2043.04 (s)there were some parts of no longer made for it that we're baseline into the system yeah because they right t. kind of parts that were uh designed in the eighties in and you know in year two thousand you have to have those parts more so we have a page problem in all of our systems right now i would like to see s. experiment on the i t. systems especially with the ones are more in the pure i t. side uhhuh but if we find principles at work here bashing those we have maybe using the weapon system acquisition maybe we can take those good ideas and this is practices this is what we're hoping that mr. hearts pilot is uh what would we is to some good data and some good conclusions about that my time is up for available turns of my friends is connelly for his questions uh things you we get may being here you know anecdotes drive a lot of stuff um
00:36:040.86 (s)i recall
00:36:064.56 (s)oh five or six um the army requirement for file metric
00:36:1120.72 (s)tool they fusion iraq to capture fingerprints and uh with elaborate process of designing what that all look like a much of way battery uh get and one of the deals wait is it say that and well they were trying to work that out the commercial side of the world had a three or four pound
00:36:3213.40 (s)some friends uh fingerprint model that was available you know a refers of radio shack but if well after show like i simplifies the struggle the we've got i was just revisions um
00:36:4611.52 (s)uh you know laptop server by the pentagon is using uh in uh the struggle the most organizations have a making sure that every three or four years so sure update you read on you know replaced or whatever
00:36:5815.90 (s)that's the monday out of what we're talking about and then you've got the uh the the clear cut message umich it the twenty two that you know twenty one years between the we can start for the first time related likely to go to work sir uh this whole world of difference of the size of the the power that you
00:37:145.88 (s)the key those people uh for you mentioned that um the price waterhouse back to get really bright
00:37:2124.18 (s)stanford version much work my jobs my life was really got the less you know the brand new rookies uh my life was not very easy it shows it all gets down to people and and you know your typical stereo you reached your typical i keep person um that where uniform doesn't uh you know the work same just it's a different culture altogether how do you get the right people
00:37:4510.16 (s)we to make those commitments background how does the defense department keep them in sentences tailor and uh uh how do you how you dress that the people person in it
00:37:570.32 (s)uh
00:37:5712.64 (s)press audience are a little bit on that when i was see uh the air force research lab we're always looking for great people and we were competing with industry lots of times for a the smartest people we could find we found that there were lots of people who wanted to come to work for the cup
00:38:1017.80 (s)there are lots of people in our country you'll commitment and and anything want to do provide some service for our country whether it's new form or a civilian but we there are some amounts of money impediments we had that i think this committee's trying to address is when we tried to hire people it could take nine to twelve months we could bring them on board
00:38:291.78 (s)and even if they were committed to us
00:38:3123.28 (s)if they were syrian offer from another uh from a company that was ready to respond in two or three months hard for them to wait for for all that time is a good is for all kinds of reasons search matches security clearance some of it's just the personnel system itself we have to be able to respond faster and i think there are some innovative proposals that are being made for how we might respond faster to hire the kind of people want to provide some service to our country
00:38:568.72 (s)a curve or exhaust your out whether the real i would think um first about the department does offer very interesting and challenging problems so that
00:39:0614.38 (s)by itself is is a little bit of a draw uh strong recognition would help also you have several special programs to hire specialist if you will and when we've looked at it those programs have really been under utilized
00:39:2119.24 (s)and you can also you do also have a bonus structure that you can uh word bonuses for uh uh outstanding performance so between uh bonuses recognition and uh giving challenging problems you have an opportunity if manage right and effectively plus the special uh hiring capability to do that
00:39:4232.54 (s)today the the abstraction eight twenty one is uh enhancing the expedited hiring authority for defense acquisition workforce personnel one of the things we could do to get these two cultures to cross the two cultures would be to expand that to include the i t. workforce including d. i. a. personnel we're trying to build up for cyber security and that kind of thing so we could expand that provision to include i t. workforce that would be helpful in us we have a parallel challenging i teen culture that you have any that you mentioned in the acquisition culture we need to bring them both to be both along at the same time
00:40:1512.56 (s)so if we could get that expanded to the idea workforce that would be helpful i will mention know that the i feel that there's a uh there are some examples of where the weapons systems that successfully embrace the commercial technology
00:40:2810.50 (s)r submarine so we have a suffering combat system that is based on commercial technology hardware components in there that are not commercial are the transducers
00:40:392.66 (s)and the uh in the rocks iraq's have to be
00:40:4217.66 (s)special because they have to be water cool because the fans and fans air cooled makes too much noise for the summary but other than that all the cables all the screens all the circuit cards everything in that system and eighty percent of the software and the system is commercially picture and the and the program has uh a lab like environment
00:41:0112.96 (s)program office that they've been running for almost ten years now that that watches over the commercial industry and follows commercial industry one one of those components is upgraded they bring this just they bring the peace and untested
00:41:1413.60 (s)and make sure that it does what it says it'll do and has all the right requirements for our environment and want to get served a green light and they they plan on which some renal going next and they and they orchestrate that whole process so there are models out there that are like
00:41:2814.24 (s)as you mentioned anecdotal that show that we can make progress in this area now there are this is not there are some challenges of that model and we're looking at that but that's the kind of thing that we're trying to move towards to address this i t. and the weapons system world
00:41:4411.86 (s)thank you miss conway that you recognize mister ellsworth for five minutes i and downside be in every three of mr we had my first question of personnel and find that talent um
00:41:5715.96 (s)but mr curb or uh i don't know when last time you're in west lafayette but it's still be alive and well welcome to boilermaker good we've gotten it in lying that commoner that's what i had to banker went out here that uh do that all the time going
00:42:134.48 (s)could you talk a little bit more about um you may come about
00:42:195.20 (s)quick change to come down the enemy and and it i know it's just it goes
00:42:257.44 (s)again everything we're talking about it's counter to do what we're saying that that finds other work some it takes long to initiate
00:42:330.76 (s)and then
00:42:342.02 (s)again we want changes
00:42:374.32 (s)because we know the enemy is constantly changing also it could be
00:42:422.54 (s)i guess i just would like to explore a little more
00:42:4541.24 (s)on i guess to go back to mr hardt's model is we get the base and they were plug it in new models to him to changes that kind of what we're talking about are to be like elaborate one yeah let me just explain that in context first uh we did one study where we said that um the information management system of the department needs to be considered part a weapon system because of the importance of it in managing combat and uh managing our troops and and their uh logistics or availability including precision weapons et cetera so uh whether send a fighter aircraft or it's a handheld or it's a p. c. it should be managed as a weapon system and protected that way
00:43:260.54 (s)uh
00:43:2842.98 (s)the issue you have when you change systems too rapidly of course is every time you change a software system you need to take with that some training and you can really have chaos in the field if you're not careful about how you manage training along with the introduction of new systems but i would argue whether it's in a fighter aircraft or any other any other system that you do need to plan for upgrades at the start of any program so that you can continually upgraded in an orderly way it doesn't have to absolutely track commercial technology but it certainly does have to track it well enough so that you can keep current with replacements parts and the capability you'd like so with that
00:44:1129.46 (s)you'd like to do things rapidly enough so that the enemy who is trying to penetrate your systems especially some of the more some of the larger is sophisticated command and control systems you'd like to change parts of that so that they're penetration of those systems is more difficult so you have to balance the be acquisition the training and the com founding the enemy if you well as a as a group in order to have an effective weapon system
00:44:4218.50 (s)that and it's a little bit on that because i he's right on this regard uh one of the the things that in the software engineering where we talk about so call quality attributes in the system engineering really talk about non functional requirements uh one of the big quality attributes are non functional requirements for all our systems is actually the ability to you all
00:45:017.12 (s)and i think that when we see i t. systems this may be one of the most important requirements it's out there it's one often not specify
00:45:0811.40 (s)well we don't really start from scratch and systems we have systems have evolved with time and i think if we start paying more attention to that or protecting for evolution of our systems in a lot better shape
00:45:2014.72 (s)with respect to uh sometime for city in our systems uh what we have a large part what we now call a model culture a lot of our systems especially right t. systems are intel and windows based um that means that if you're an enemy
00:45:3514.28 (s)if your site really know which you have to go against it be a lot better for us to have a little more diverse cultures or to have some systems at parc windows based on intel based that makes it harder for people to attack if they can bring something down they can bring the whole system
00:45:518.18 (s)thanks very much sure we got enough road uh i hear back it's a little traverse together chair recognizes to cost
00:46:011.00 (s)but he was german uh
00:46:020.78 (s)we've had
00:46:042.96 (s)maybe there's a move afoot
00:46:079.66 (s)to to to uh say that we've outsourced too much in terms of the the technical expertise uh engaged in the contracting process and
00:46:1813.10 (s)that to improve the process that we're you breeding a lot of the expertise back in uh and have them as uh federal employees as opposed to a private sector individuals uh under contract
00:46:3210.84 (s)it it you've chart so you've address the issue about competing for expertise uh among the it in the private sector versus the public sector
00:46:432.88 (s)it is that it in the in the world of
00:46:473.18 (s)the i t. professional uh that we need
00:46:510.40 (s)uh
00:46:521.46 (s)to move the process along
00:46:535.22 (s)is that movement of ready in that expertise in house
00:46:594.60 (s)versus having it available on a contractual basis
00:47:040.58 (s)uh
00:47:050.72 (s)as needed
00:47:072.36 (s)it is that moving going to hurt or help
00:47:104.46 (s)um moving be uh i t. process for the defense acquisition
00:47:172.12 (s)well i see
00:47:204.48 (s)is this argument is interesting in e. i t. world because of the i t. world what we outsourced
00:47:254.46 (s)largely work people who were writing code and what we're trying to bring in
00:47:302.46 (s)our system our software system engineers
00:47:334.44 (s)they can manage contracts where the vendor is writing the code but they understand
00:47:381.10 (s)the necessary
00:47:404.92 (s)hard points to make sure that it's done right and fits into the open environment we're trying to develop
00:47:456.34 (s)so we are bringing back the same skill set that we outsourced and and we're bringing back unless want be
00:47:528.48 (s)and we will still be depending upon industry to do the code writing and the things that are more dynamic well we maintain a uh uh
00:48:013.76 (s)ability to understand what we're asking for
00:48:051.76 (s)and understand what they're delivery
00:48:073.30 (s)so that that's the balance we're trying to achieve but we have ways to go
00:48:1143.78 (s)us or i i think you have really no alternative but have people in the government who are up educated at some level they they perhaps don't have to be be uh design engineer but they have to have engineering awareness if they're making complex decisions if they're matching programs that have engineering challenges and they have to know enough know if the what they're being told the right to make good decisions and uh another thing is very important in this regard is that you can't just rest on a person's education you know when they finish school in nineteen eighty one thirty five or whatever this is the area that sixteen suffices jeff if continuous education in this so the government has to continue to send these people to uh short courses long courses whatever it is to maintain your currency in this regard
00:48:571.70 (s)maybe i'm a couple comments uh
00:48:5919.12 (s)one is i think you clearly need to leadership in the department that understands the problem has actually done it well and uh can provide oversight and guidance and i understand when things are in trouble and how to start and and manage program so you certainly need that within the department
00:49:1919.60 (s)if you talk about as as was mentioned creating code or creating even new ideas i think you really going to have to rely on the private sector for that because that's where that really comes i i just think back to and my many uh cases of managing technical people uh if you have a large concrete technical people in house
00:49:3925.52 (s)they become very defensive of what they have designed and developed that's called the n. i. h. problem not intended here and they're very resistant to the idea is that come from outside and so you need uh i capability to reach out because if you don't reach out you'll never keep up with the private sector so i would say there is a danger having too much development inside that would actually for your ability to keep current on the outside
00:50:070.36 (s)okay
00:50:081.42 (s)be in
00:50:1024.26 (s)we've had testimony uh in in prior meetings and defense acquisition whereby uh they're the issue about requirement changes uh come up and it might be that you know somebody does delta they had a better way of doing it or that uh there was an analysis of of current truck conditions and they had changed two or or something was left out but that uh that there was
00:50:350.34 (s)but
00:50:363.84 (s)requirement is we're out of control in that they were driving cost
00:50:416.16 (s)nobody you know that we need to do this kind of close the door some point say the system is good enough was just go for it
00:50:4821.88 (s)when we it in the i t. side of that is that just more straightforward uh in terms of the changing requirements uh for i t. vs the the hardware work with weapons uh acquisition process itself that made a comment about couple things one is i do know that uh we were our attention was brought to be uh
00:51:1016.88 (s)b. l. a. and then bringing in a new logistics system and the uh the person in charge of that i can't remember his name but anyway he froze basically frozen requirements brought in the system and then i opened it up for improvement and we would argue that the smart way to do that is at some point
00:51:2732.52 (s)frees requirements i don't like the word frees capabilities and reduce the system make a list then do a spiral development our block upgrade and and have that plan from the from the get go then you have an orderly way of bringing in new ideas and you can't continually just dribble the man you gotta bring them in a box and maybe in the twelve or eighteen months sequence you bring in the new ideas you happen to very orderly way to do it you can train your work force you can deliver the system capability much quicker and uh it's always essentially current
00:52:013.78 (s)in where that is a challenge is when you freeze the system
00:52:0515.00 (s)for too long a period of time you start running into moore's law you start running into in the people that are saying i can't wait for this i've got to do it now to get my job done and they work around you and that's for some of that requirements turn comes in and so in freezing i agree you need to freeze it at some point
00:52:217.46 (s)but you don't want to freeze it for the time so that when you do a deliberate it's obsolete in any got a huge cost to fix it and implement it so
00:52:294.54 (s)there's a balance there and get it argues back the d. s. p. model that says deliver
00:52:342.12 (s)have shorter smaller programs
00:52:3620.48 (s)deliver things in modules rather than freezing an entire capability until you get the entire capability built right so for each module you might for use that capability into you build to time that is of some more has more chance of success then freezing the entire capability to deliver the entire system
00:53:006.40 (s)maybe sure sure when are you backgrounds thank you very much just cooper's recognized thank the chairman in fact witnesses
00:53:074.76 (s)i'm worried that u. i. t. guys basically at the front lines of a cyber war
00:53:141.14 (s)already happening
00:53:161.44 (s)what is required under acquired
00:53:182.60 (s)you get some attention not that much
00:53:216.14 (s)this is a war that far people copper hand because it's regardless of national boundaries are time tables or nationality or
00:53:280.84 (s)yeah like that
00:53:310.52 (s)so
00:53:321.74 (s)all the bureaucratic gobbledy gook
00:53:341.76 (s)if if we hear these reports
00:53:373.00 (s)which has a certain lack of urgency awareness
00:53:425.40 (s)other also seems to be no more difference between capability invulnerability
00:53:485.16 (s)of any system not taxable and doctor nelson mentioned it would be nice to have diverse cultures
00:53:544.80 (s)yeah we we're so wedded to chips made primarily what in mainland china
00:54:012.42 (s)better so almost infinitely complex
00:54:044.30 (s)you had an infinitely complex software overlay with a couple hundred million lines because
00:54:090.76 (s)who knows
00:54:112.92 (s)and are we hiring the best students or the schools
00:54:150.38 (s)yeah
00:54:161.16 (s)it's a question
00:54:192.42 (s)this is an area that should be focusing
00:54:231.54 (s)for national attention
00:54:275.72 (s)so i'm grateful for also expertise that uh even in your testimony i feel a certain lack of
00:54:330.90 (s)or to say
00:54:355.50 (s)um appreciate doc perverse a recent reports pexa work for the defense science board
00:54:410.32 (s)but
00:54:421.58 (s)i have this nagging feeling
00:54:450.48 (s)that
00:54:464.20 (s)our defense establishment is not getting the best that the private sector have stuff
00:54:5210.26 (s)and they were having difficulty recruiting the best to join the government service and i know there are a lot of wonderful people with unpatriotic enough to join and it's about the nine to twelve months delight hiring
00:55:041.60 (s)all the bureaucratic rules but
00:55:063.30 (s)i think we should be working a strenuous as possible to make it um
00:55:112.40 (s)much easier for the best come work for a slam
00:55:141.60 (s)and say working for uncle sam
00:55:171.56 (s)and achieving things that
00:55:194.30 (s)please google and microsoft and all these other companies track
00:55:264.04 (s)yeah i get the sense that we're more off track by them and
00:55:318.50 (s)not other compensation packages can be larger than we can imagine and things like that but there's got to be away so that we feel the urgency of the struggle
00:55:401.08 (s)when the pentagon's
00:55:435.38 (s)x. thirty five thousand times a day when there's allegations some of already so f. twenty two code
00:55:493.06 (s)and various government departments rack with just two or three days ago
00:55:530.30 (s)yeah
00:55:541.52 (s)we're dangerously
00:55:562.34 (s)um some knowledge about this
00:55:593.24 (s)i'll talk to our defense friends ask what kind of computer they have a
00:56:033.00 (s)it's never the system is in the office
00:56:071.28 (s)yeah
00:56:093.72 (s)i i don't i'm i'm not knowledgeable know which one is better
00:56:130.30 (s)but
00:56:143.52 (s)this is um can pretty scary here
00:56:183.90 (s)so i hope you john one bring your jobs um since version so see if
00:56:232.76 (s)these are truly second half level issues
00:56:260.80 (s)be beyond
00:56:285.46 (s)you know undersecretary your assistant secretaries something like that to make sure this f. s. paying attention
00:56:342.80 (s)i think in case overall surrender great job but
00:56:381.18 (s)this is um
00:56:412.48 (s)or issues of this importance it should they you know
00:56:442.14 (s)if you sleepy folks at eight o'clock in the morning
00:56:472.84 (s)talking jargon that most people can't
00:56:514.02 (s)this is important as the rack rack and right because it's everything
00:56:551.00 (s)every references
00:56:581.58 (s)the security of every american
00:57:002.04 (s)the security of our banking system
00:57:030.84 (s)of things that
00:57:041.92 (s)these are no longer technical issues
00:57:081.24 (s)is there a life and death
00:57:101.22 (s)survival issues
00:57:125.36 (s)unfortunately do the science involved in math after the technicalities a lot of folks to start getting
00:57:180.38 (s)so
00:57:196.48 (s)maybe to send you helpless translate these issues and applying everyday english if would be good
00:57:263.56 (s)if people have to large their imaginations be able to cope
00:57:312.94 (s)with the challenges that are facing right now
00:57:346.52 (s)this is far more difficult for them to think of that biological warfare things like that that are also exotic but
00:57:417.32 (s)at least people have a sense of the are less aware of iris computer
00:57:493.80 (s)so forth thing that question but appreciate else expertise in
00:57:541.92 (s)really challenge this committee
00:57:561.80 (s)and challengers here
00:57:591.16 (s)be the best they can be
00:58:0424.38 (s)i'm i'm congratulate to deal with using the word some little first use it in the these proceedings i'm very impressed by um uh not new jersey there's a lot of new jersey work intelligence to my colleagues in the panel we'd like to offer people second really question on the take that option myself um
00:58:294.04 (s)the disturbing news is that and as i said at the outset that
00:58:340.58 (s)um
00:58:353.20 (s)fifty three percent of the i t. projects
00:58:395.56 (s)or later overbudget typical cost growth exceeds the target budget by eighty nine percent
00:58:458.62 (s)uh this is the time when our reliance upon software and i work is growing in importance of interesting chart
00:58:552.62 (s)i believe it's from the d. s. p. task force but
00:58:581.18 (s)if you have four
00:58:594.14 (s)eight percent of its functions were performed by software nineteen sixty
00:59:045.10 (s)by nineteen seventy d. f. one eleven had twenty percent of the functions performed by software
00:59:1019.30 (s)uh by nineteen eighty two d. s. sixteen forty five percent of its functions performed by software they get the two thousand you have twenty two eighty percent and i'm sure that the numbers cross so importance of this is growing but the problem is is worse say i want to focus so it for the success stories in i guess i would ask you
00:59:302.14 (s)which entities if any
00:59:335.58 (s)within the of the world have different results uh with which entities have proven to be successful
00:59:391.10 (s)uh models
00:59:419.04 (s)at the acquisition of i t. products are our order some corners of our system right now that are working well or at least better than these data
00:59:504.38 (s)if so who are they where are they and what what are they got right but the rest of the system has
00:59:563.30 (s)i just comment mr our uh mentioned the submarine uh
00:59:598.30 (s)program which is designed to be uh changed out with cost systems in an orderly way and and as we looked at it it was
01:00:0812.64 (s)one of the top manage programs and and i t. in the department no not fervor what um to what you describe the success relative success of that probably think i know but i would like here is the question they do have strong leaders
01:00:2113.88 (s)uh and uh the the leaders come up through a program in the navy that is trained to them basically uh but also they designed the whole system and process around the concept that they need to refresh
01:00:3620.68 (s)periodically and so they can do that in an orderly way by the way they set the capabilities that they need how they acquire them et cetera so the whole program is structured for success basically you know up in the the data that would compare the data i just used about how they were how they matched up with respect to time and budget in the summary program
01:00:5723.34 (s)uhhuh i i don't but i know it was they were doing a good job i get well numbers ask the staff to just supplement director would i would that was kind of a pop as i would expect i i don't work for the department we want to do this all is to look at problem areas without question but also look at some success series of trying to learn from those best practices one of the statements i'm not sure which
01:01:219.06 (s)it's it's very important not to use problems is it seems to be people over the head with it i'm not sure the that i i appreciate that that
01:01:312.72 (s)i said at the outset i don't think we have a lot of
01:01:341.66 (s)you know in competition
01:01:3617.22 (s)ill intentioned people craze probably the opposite strictly a lot of really dedicated competent people working within the system it just is not serving member or well and so we want to finance is whether visit sass and learn from those is doesn't try to replicate what either of the other two witnesses want to answer that question
01:01:561.02 (s)uh
01:01:579.96 (s)we've had some success were kind of been what i call an interminably period right now because we're going from these systems these large systems that he revolve using proprietary
01:02:080.56 (s)um
01:02:096.22 (s)proprietary software millions of lines of code we're trying to evolve to the system is more of a layered process
01:02:1616.32 (s)uh you know as so or or cloud computing or some these new concepts and as we progress into those new realms it it gives us much more ability to control the dynamics of the i t. world where if you're in a proprietary environments very difficult to do that
01:02:339.46 (s)um one of the agencies it's um uh out in front in that area right now it's making some progress is the n. s. a. they have a couple of programs that are
01:02:431.04 (s)they're they're not
01:02:448.14 (s)i don't want to say there i don't hold off the same complete but they're making progress in the right direction here and and a little bit out front on that so
01:02:5313.08 (s)uh fill them up is a good example they turned around their process in the last few years and have have made some good strides heavily have should make sure if areas each is teachers teach a lot of people utility and
01:03:079.90 (s)churchill said that we have lot to be home below about this business we in the congress fully others but this is uh there are some success stories out there other two life
01:03:1757.80 (s)um now they are is done some wonderful work uh special and we engineering software and some of the maintenance software that they build for uh uh systems that are already in existence warner robins in forces forces done really wonderful job on elevating their software game in doing pretty well on some of the software that they provide the army uh has had a i really uh interesting story over the last five six years where they've um crafted education program for all their senior leaders acquisition leaders to be more aware of software engineering principles architecture in inside and we seen some effect of that is a consensus for the war college it was but it's done some two d. two defense acquisition university and some to it army specific program in the people that at army read soon enough and still have to clean benefited from that know it level week he's interested in no matter educationally and then there's some an intel community to that's a little harder talk about the difference assesses some successes an intel community as well in the very good we're we're going to we're going to low
01:04:151.94 (s)work closely those examples because again we
01:04:180.62 (s)we want to
01:04:1914.32 (s)identified places where people making progress in try to replicate those models the one of the question real quick um if you line with what uh uh these successes but there's deal do you have an enterprise wide set of metrics
01:04:332.68 (s)this is here's what success would look like
01:04:371.32 (s)uh in the i t. world
01:04:380.74 (s)and then
01:04:408.18 (s)do they actually systematically range we collect data over time uh to measure very systems against those metrics to say
01:04:489.54 (s)in fact flush out to it the good guys that had to with arbitrary successes who've been horrible as a better
01:04:5930.22 (s)well the metrics that we've been using have been the metrics have been the financial metrics in the acquisition process metrics and and we and the whole purpose of this study in committee is that we probably don't work very well in measuring i t. success um you know because the because of the churn in the in the in the technology if you say i want to have an acquisition baseline in five years later i'm going to develop i'm going to deliver something five years later you can deliver something that the war fighter things is great is totally broken from an acquisition perspective because
01:05:2923.24 (s)uh it because it was successful we we build systems for a small group and it works so well and other groups as i wanted to and so pretty soon the system that was intended for ten people is now being used by a thousand right and and so the cost one up tenfold and it will generate statistical ever mentioning here they did cost broke but in fact it was a successful system because it area expanded beyond what they imagined it would do
01:05:530.46 (s)so
01:05:546.16 (s)uh i i don't think we have a good set of metrics and that's part of what we're trying to develop here as part of this effort
01:06:000.42 (s)um
01:06:0225.62 (s)it not i guess i'll just leave it at that i think that uh uh the financial metrics and i think the the milestone metrics for a fixed big program or the wrong metrics i know we've been successful you'll see a correlation between the successful programs that we find it mentioned and size smaller programs are more successful if we're if we're delivering we can go that we can compete with industry delivering programs of seventy five thousand lines of code or less
01:06:282.34 (s)when you start getting up into the million lines of code
01:06:313.32 (s)even industry can't deliver them on time and schedule and and so
01:06:355.16 (s)the that kind of suggested this whole direction that we're going with a small modular approach
01:06:402.32 (s)mainland itself two or more successes
01:06:458.76 (s)nobody else insert sow are some for whatever value management um the deal use that but sometimes not so level of fidelity it they need early in the program
01:06:5445.76 (s)uh we found that if you do this um uh you know we really get credit for what plan which works going to be your budget which works can be in any measure against how that's being done you have to do that uh uh fine enough level of detail to get an early indication of whether you're successfully it's it's not good enough to find out five years into a program big thing really in trouble i we have some successes with that in in the military need needy program has done that somewhat uh nap here is done that but in addition we've worked with some of the commercial companies and had great success with this one we're most proud of i think is so some of the work to be done with into it that uh you of course works on turbo tax in quicken and some of those products that follow some of these principles and and seen remarkable improvement in their productivity in their ability to meet their schedules which obviously protects off was very important
01:07:410.56 (s)thank sure
01:07:4313.18 (s)elsewhere fall i'm sure you're going to say that the good examples of these boiler makers o. just go say that now that mr cooper is gone i think what he was really trying to say was being from tennessee understand it
01:07:577.88 (s)everybody wants to shoot a rabid nobody wants get it and that makes it much worse it'll review be in indiana
01:08:051.56 (s)i guess my question is
01:08:0714.48 (s)whose who we need just give a rat like you said is it is the second japanese with you mr carpet us as all those together are we move in the right direction i keep hearing we need two we need to we need to and and like the doctor reset all the studies
01:08:222.38 (s)who needs to be skinner wrap it isn't
01:08:253.58 (s)all how we get how do we implement that so
01:08:294.86 (s)let's move for for this panel is convene to do is move this kickers ball
01:08:341.84 (s)yeah the court in right direction so
01:08:373.10 (s)um help us implement what we need to be doing
01:08:4314.74 (s)i think it's a combined responsibility ken i the d. s. p. users right on about the uh um importance at the very senior leadership levels how important is is and even that at some point be uh under undersecretary fence recognition technology and logistics
01:08:5818.94 (s)is high enough that it requires everybody yes but i also believe that a lot of the acquisition is done at the contact point and so you need smart program managers smart does system engineers it kind of working in this as well um i i mentioned in my statement or as a you need to do this yeah everybody has to feel responsible
01:09:188.86 (s)if there are specific things that do you also about that the hiring folks i know that taking the nine months first read whatever it is that you can see
01:09:2810.98 (s)to put a bug an hour your of people you see we'd be glad to take that on and try to use be that have to do exactly things you're saying that we need to do thank you chairman ideal thank you mister any follow to too
01:09:3913.04 (s)well i would like to thank the witnesses as i said for very thorough well thought out testimony this morning we're going to be calling upon you excuse me again as the committee proceeds um our attention
01:09:537.64 (s)is to explore these areas are for the balance of two thousand nine nine convene early in two thousand ten
01:10:013.94 (s)and identify the best practices and recommendations that we will make
01:10:057.78 (s)in the form of legislative recommendations for the fiscal twenty eleven authorization bills last time table that we're on um
01:10:149.14 (s)okay this morning was both confirm a tory and uh an open up some new areas of inquiry forces certainly confirm doc fervor our sense that
01:10:241.44 (s)quality of of uh
01:10:264.72 (s)the people would be able leadership is the a little point i think that can't be said enough
01:10:310.74 (s)um
01:10:325.60 (s)know doctor nielsen i think that you identified confirm the point that we understand that um
01:10:3920.52 (s)the acquisition process friday th is very different it is for lots of other things we can't be superimposed that same orthodox model and then mr harp um you know the reason the committee supported the language these pilots is we want you to be innovative integrated and we encourage you to do that what i found interesting so someone groundbreaking this morning
01:11:000.62 (s)um
01:11:012.94 (s)it was some of the testimony about the um
01:11:054.02 (s)uh success that we've had we we do want to learn more about that because uh you know
01:11:0910.36 (s)we think that there can be uh successes that need to be highlighted in more from um so that we can find a best practices if he's better leaders are implementing replicate do two more of it
01:11:208.68 (s)um again we would welcome uh comments from the witnesses as we proceed in this process it's our goal not to write a whole bunch of new rules
01:11:305.40 (s)but to produce a legislative recommendations that would help fix this problem um
01:11:367.14 (s)yeah i'd like to thank our colleagues for their time and attention this morning like the witnesses deconcini can correspond with a panel with that